Saturday, January 19, 2008

Comment-Scientific Criticisms-KOMU

For those who are students of science, it would seem there are some fair assessments and issues brought to light in the piece above. As relates to the KOMU coverage of this, I would have to think Dr. Miles might want to comment on these criticisms in the February wrap up.
For policy makers in state government in Missouri, this little project has done a great service to our democracy by presenting both sides of a debate. I encourage all to read through all of the many posts, understand we are human and this is of incredible importance to many not just as a medical debate but as relates to the potential for biological imperialism as imposed by state and federal government. Titer documentation not vaccination records should determine public school entrance and exemptions need to be protected. I will vaccinate my fourth child in a quite different manner than the "guidelines" given by the CDC, knowing all that I understand currently and was complete unaware of before having been engaged in this area by the experience of my family.

Evidence based medicine requires evidence of need for boosters after first dose of a vaccine in a series; it is the keep-it-simple-stupid approach that should be openly and honestly discussed between family practice and pediatrics physicians and their patients. Those who open their doors in practice to this idea may see many new patients, parents like me who want to vaccinate their children for the appropriate at-risk epidemic diseases at appropriate ages with the safest of approaches; this would shift revenue to clinical pathologists from vaccine companies selling unneeded boosters and to open-minded clinicians in the care of children. This compromise puts the patient-physician relationship back in the spotlight. The approach also dims the governance-governed relationship of the CDC and public health officials trying to do their best on a societal basis while ignoring the needs of individuals. These policy artists are so willing to overdose vaccines on the assumption that it is the best method to protect a populace that can't make decisions on its own; very unAmerican and unscientific as the idea has never ben approached any other way. A titer check approach to indicate booster need would actually help defuse a growing vaccine availability crisis, ironic isn't it?

For those who ask why a former Husker and Dakotan has so much to say on this blog, it is simple: our water is your water, I live on the banks of the great river that bears the name of your state and what we do up here on these molecules of H2O gets to Missouri eventually.
Protecting our children's environment is getting harder everyday and it is something that requires great effort from the "little" guy. Autism has a major environmental component that is a liability for the many large industries that are polluting our children's bodies; thus, though vaccines are not completely to blame they do reflect the effects of an industry who job it is to protect the environmental health of our children.
Physicians pushing pharmaceuticals to be better than the fossil fuels industry, metals manufacturers and other industrial polluters shouldn't be so hard, but as anyone can see from experience on this blog, the conditioning of MDs leads them to keep their mouths shut on politically contentious issues for fear of many backlashes.

If PHaRMA wants to push back on this issue, maybe they should spend some money on researching the environmental connections here in a productive manner for their industry by supporting the epidemiology of autism near industrial pollution sites instead of just trying to white wash their own role in this , or give Dr. Von Saal of the University of Missouri some grants to research the explosion of reproductive toxins in our food supply. The role of other industries in this internal-environmental crisis affecting the neurological health of the next generation of Americans is probably even worse than the role played by vaccines, but mom's keep blaming vaccines completely when by temporal association there is an event of vaccination and a response of neurological decline that then gets institutionally ignored.

The future will show we are on the course of a growing epigenetic epidemic, our genes and our environments are suffering increasing dysfunction. These kids are Rachel Carson's birds of the 21st century they need better than what society is doing to skirt the issues so as to protect establishment medicine (state of denial), pharmaceuticals (vaccines), big oil (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons), manufacturing (heavy metals), agriculture (organophosphates), food processors (bisphenol A, aspartame), and others (including radiologists) who are playing this role in punctuated genomic instability complicated by molecular slowing of toxin handling kinetics in an increasing proportion of an entire generation of children. Sadly, all of this is only going to get much worse (slowly) for a very long time (decades); the chicken little of today will be understood as the sentinel of tomorrow-by then I fear we will not really have the American experiment anymore, being too run down as a middle class populace by these social-environmental issues to fight the good fight anymore.

As for approach to treatment, establishment academic clinicians need to start paying attention to the work and ideas of Martha Herbert, MD, PhD at Harvard, she's doing the right homework on this issue where so many others are afraid to in the ivory towers. People who want the vision to see how to make this debate productive for children need to read Changing the Course of Autism by Bryan Jepson, MD.

Thanks again to the faculty of the University of Missouri School of Journalism, you are profiles in courage for our day.

Edward F. Fogarty, III, M.D.
Chairman of Radiology
University of North Dakota School of Medicine
Lifelong resident of the banks of the Missouri.


BillinMidMO said...

Tell me dear Doctor...have you (personally) ever drawn blood from a 4 year old?
I have.
It is NOT easy and runs the risk of needle stick injury to the phlebotomist and physical damage and psychological trauma to the childen.
You speak too easily of "titers". Most folks do not know what is entailed in a antibody titer.
An MMR, DTAP and Polio assessment in titer form, would require at least 4 large blood tubes from each squirmy and resistant child.
Please do not talk blood titers as an admission requirement for Public Education.
Talk about risk!

AutismNewsBeat said...

And thanks to the pediatrics and infectious disease departments at the local medical college for scheduling a chat with the station manager at KOMU. Maybe Dr. Fogarty will get a shout out when the station runs its hour-long mea culpa next month.

Upper Mo MD said...


I understand that it is difficult, but it is an option driven by medical consumerism outside of research for parents to consider (and yes this has other risks, but these are choices and points of discussion for people that those paternalists in medicine like yourself don't want to address). Within research settings a titer check protocol comparison will show us that our assumptions have been wrong for decades-an admission that the AAP, CDC and everyone else in medicine doesn't want to make and can't really debate me on.

Lastly, this research will also leverage the culture change to open the door for people in medicine to question the government-which you seem to be too trusting of and I do think you have failed to read the Simpsonwood document still, haven't you?

PS: This simple debate will also drive someone to develop an easier method of titer checking-I know US science and in particular some great immunologists in Missouri can probably get that Titer Check-Meter thing done in a couple years. (Refer to older posts for those who are unsure of this multi-million dollar idea that the U of M J School has stimulated).

Kathleen Seidel said...

Ted, I too am curious to know whether you have ever drawn blood from a four-year-old child. Your response "I understand that it is difficult" suggests that the direct answer is "No."

You seem very casual about the potential for trauma and harm to children inherent in your bloody little titer test proposals. Take another look at KOMU's segment on the Weinmaster boy's trip to the LabCorp office. Listen to him scream, "I don't want to get stuck again!" That was no autistic meltdown, that was Everychild; he was screaming at his mother, and he was screaming at every researcher who collects the blood of children in order to transform it into data for research.

Do you really expect that children should be forced to open their veins so that you can disprove the apparent assumptions of people and institutions whom you hold in contempt, or so that you can "leverage culture change" of any sort? How incredibly paternalistic!

lindaweino said...

Unfortunately, Adam is very sick from mercury poisoning. His poor health requires monthly labs to regulate his blood sugar, thyroid, metabolic disorder, heavy metal toxicity and other health related issues. I would have been happy to have my child’s titers checked instead of what we have to do today because of vaccines. The trauma began in the pediatricians office with mercury containing vaccines.

July 1, 2001 AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS: Technical Report: Mercury in the Environment: Implications for Pediatricians "Mercury in all of its forms is toxic to the fetus and children, and efforts should be made to reduce exposure to the extent possible to pregnant women and children as well as the general population." In 2002 the CDC recommended all pregnant women receive a flu vaccine as well as all children 6 months or older. Why? You can’t debate the toxicity of mercury. It is toxic to tissue cells at a nanomolar level.

AutismNewsBeat said...

If Adam has mercury poisoning, then why isn't he being treated by a toxicologist? Why won't insurance pick up the cost? Why doesn't he present symptoms of mercury poisoning?

lindaweino said...

If it is any of your busines, our insurance has covered over $70,000 last year and close to $65,000 the year before towards Adam’s treatment for mercury poisoning. The $700.00 per month is only the alternative treatments and supplements and does not cover our deductibles.
Mercury poisoning symptoms are identical to symptoms Adam has experienced, which include vision and eye damage, pancreas problems, coughing, shortness of breath, peeling skin on hands and feet, incoordination, chest pain, vision problems, erratic behavior, fever, tremors, rashes, mouth sores, itching, swelling, flushing face and ears, kidney problems, liver problems, pituitary dysfunction, endocrine dysfunction, metabolism disorder, hearing problems, neurologic issues, impaired learning, brain damage, memory loss, headaches, increased blood pressure, abdominal pain, increased heart rate, loss of appetite, sleeplessness, restlessness, irritability, shyness, fretfulness, joint pains, numbness and weakness. Because of the exposure in utero is more damaging to the developing fetus, Adam has suffered great damage to all organs and nervous system.

HCN said...

Was he pink, also?

FOGARTY said...

You guys will get this eventually, I know you are smart enough;-).

Thimerosal shuts down glutathione-S-methyl transferase, even in people with great function of this enzyme it cuts activity by 50%. So in kids who are unfortunately affected by even slower kinetics in this and other parts of transsulfation biochemistry there is a huge risk to giving this compound. We are now on the verge of figuring out how to best find such at risk children and avoid this exposure in the small number of kids at risk (1/200 or so). So people better get vitamin T out of ALL vaccines soon because as this science progresses there is going to be a huge malpractice risk for all the trusting pediatricians who haven't done their molecular homework here and continue to give thimerosal containing vaccines-which, I know Bill, Missouri has a great law against that which is based on good basic science and the idea of the PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE. Which you cracked on in past blogging of many bold Missouri lawmakers for protecting their citizens on this deal.

Now I still don't see where Bill, HCN, ANB or the wonderful Kathleen Seidel have made any attempt to explain the Simpsonwood document. What is it that you do Kathleen, you are a parent, you are okay with not improving vaccine safety, you have no background in science, you seem to be marketing the safety of thimerosal here which is really a bad horse to back with all the basic science I have plastered across this blog showing concerns for decades on this stuff (there is much more but I am running out of time pounding this into the heads of those who are watching this closely and may have previously been more likely to listen to you, ANB, HCN and several other anonymous people who have disparaged me, and more importantly Dr. Haley who clearly deserves the respect of a scientist giving his best for society in an atmosphere of near fascism towards thoughtful inconvenient economically damaging science (WHICH THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION SUPPRESSES ALL THE TIME).

YES MEDICINE IS QUITE FASCIST, as an INSIDER I CAN TELL YOU THERE ARE RESIDENCIES THAT PRIDE THEMSELVES ON DIVORCE RATES. This is not a culture that cares as much for health and patients as it does for making money and protecting its turf anymore, frankly its always been that way. Ask the U of M Journalism faculty how fascist the medical culture is, the arrows started flying early across campus in Columbia.

Really, some smart people at the top of industry and vaccine science see the problem right away; here's a little guide for you to go through the piece and learn a little bit from some very smart people:
Link to PDF of meeting minutes on this site to the Safeminds server.

SIMPSONWOOD: CLOSED Meeting in Georgia regarding the association between vaccines and neurodevelopmental delays.

Early pages show all the big players here.

Things get interesting later:
Page 107:
Discussion suggests that if all neurodevelopmental issues are lumped together then the risk of mercury related toxicity is 1.2 (in other words 20% of kids actually have some sort of neurdevelopmental delay). Further discussion shows how easy it is to manipulate the data.

P 161-162
Series of quotes indicating the concern by the lead author who eventually publishes studies that actually end up saying the opposite-somehow its not the thimerosal.

P187 This quote flies in the face of official lack of concern in pediatrics community.

P190 Idea of going to no thimerosal and single dose vials-why didn't that happen for flu vaccines.

P194 Aluminum alluded to as another issue.

The instinct of a grandfather, he calls to tell his daughter not to let his just delivery grandson get any Thimerosal containing vaccines.

Specific concerns about the appropriateness of hepatitis B vaccines in kids.

Dr. Weil finally just comes out and says it: linear significant effect on neurobehavioral issues.

CAN"T BE GENETIC (actually it does have a genetic overlay-heavy metal sensitivity due to an array of genes that are involved with poor detoxification of metals).
Also second point by me, this is not solely due to vaccines and thimerosal, many other environmental toxins are stressing appropriate neurodevelopment in our kids. Fogarty lecture slides from ND AAP meeting September 2006 shows this multi-factorial process (posted elsewhere on KOMU site)

Weil states how strong the association is in his mind.

Concept of synergistic effects of heavy metals in biological harm.

The mandate or foregone conclusion was always that they would not change course (representative from the World Health Organization).

P254 Dr Weil tries to voice dissent.


It is striking that no one has done a big time story on it like 20/20 (weak-kneed US media, only U of M has the guts to do this debate). Soon enough though, it will happen as the political momentum is starting to shift markedly as more and more coverage on autism generally alerts people to these concerns.


The debate for most people is closing in on the fact that it is self-evident that vaccines are a risk for neurodevelopmental delays so we need to be much more judicious about the when and how such a widespread exposure is delivered (just like medical radiation). As the CDC increases the vaccine schedule further the pull back comparison is going to make this even more obvious. Skip the titer checks and just pull off the HEP B in a prospective thoughful and well controlled study in those who have family histories of autoimmune disease or neuropsychiatric issues and you will see the statistically significant difference I am talking about here-small but linear. Again, the protection of the sacred cow has now become so obviously tainted by industry conflicts of interest that anyone who calls themself a thoughtful American would question the veracity of the weak epidemiology that keeps getting massaged to hide the effect. ANB, HCN, Kathleen and some others on here just don't want to hear about how one can improve the situation, apparently they really don't want a safe but imperfect system improved upon. I do and have said as much all over this blog but there is undeniable evidence of a problem here that is only obfuscated by bad epidemiology by influenced people-Kathleen, do you smoke around your kids because there are decades worth of epidemiology studies showing no link between cigarette smoking and any health problems. Guess you sound like the trusting type here, so maybe you do.

Those who continue to remain anonymous or semi-anonymous really lose alot of credibility in this debate. Sorry to frustrate some of those who are having trouble with this, it is quite a common experience for those who try to debate a physician who has spent 24 months with his head in the medical literature studying this so thoroughly.


Oh yes, sorry about the capital letters and run-on sentences for the grammatically correct and format sensitive;-).

AutismNewsBeat said...

Conclusion from HCN's linked article:

The most important step in the management of mercury poisoning is eliminating the source of exposure. The effectiveness of chelation therapy in reversing symptoms is not entirely clear.

Our case stresses the potential harm of mercury. It reminds us to think of a toxic exposure when family members present with the same unusual constellation of symptoms. It also highlights the common misconception that all alternative medicines are safe and benign.

ANB said...

Simpsonwood has been quote-mined and cherry picked to death. There's no there there. Lindsay Beyerstein says everything there is to say here:

Short version: RFK Jr. either doesn't know what he's talking about, or is an idiot.

I do agree with what you said about the Bush Administration. Worst. President. Ever.

MBq said...

"You can’t debate the toxicity of mercury. It is toxic to tissue cells at a nanomolar level."

Well sure you can. Many things are toxic at some level. Take the 99mTc Ted is familiar with. It's safely injected in to humans everyday but is it it universally safe? Is it it universally toxic? Maybe Ted will explain why some dose makes the poison.

FOGARTY said...

MBQ-read through all of this blog I have already addressed the "dose makes the poison" issues. I reference the polymorhisms of ethanol detoxification in Asians versus Causasians. Maybe you can do us all a favor and submit another post on this thread with a link to that discussion.

EFFIIIMD said...

MBQ: Maybe you and ANB can explain this one as relates to dose-poison phenomena.

Inhibition of the human erythrocytic glutathione-S-transferase T1 (GST T1) by thimerosal.

Müller M, Westphal G, Vesper A, Bünger J, Hallier E.

Department of Occupational and Social Medicine, Georg-August-University Göttingen, D-37073 Göttingen, Germany.

We have investigated the interaction of thimerosal, a widely used antiseptic and preservative, with the human erythrocytic GST T1 (glutathione-S-transferase T1). This detoxifying enzyme is expressed in the erythrocytes of solely the human species and it displays a genetic polymorphism. Due to this polymorphism about 25% of the individuals of the caucasian population lack this activity ("non-conjugators"), while 75% show it ("conjugators") (Hallier, E., et al., 1993). Using our newly developed HPLC-fluorescence detection assay (Müller, M., et al., 2001) we have profiled the kinetics of enzyme inhibition in erythrocyte lysates of two individuals previously identified as "normal conjugator" (medium enzyme activity) and "super-conjugator" (very high activity). For the normal conjugator we have determined a 2.77 mM thimerosal concentration to inhibit 50% of the GST T1 activity. In the case of the super-conjugator a 2.3 mM thimerosal concentration causes a 50% inhibition of the enzyme activity. For both phenotypes a 14.8 mM thimerosal concentration results in residual enzyme activities equal to those typically detected in non-conjugator lysates. Thus, sufficiently high doses of thimerosal may be able to change the phenotypic status of an individual--at least in vitro--by inhibition of the GST T1 enzyme.
MeSH Terms:
* Anti-Infective Agents, Local/adverse effects*
* Chromatography, High Pressure Liquid
* Erythrocytes/enzymology*
* European Continental Ancestry Group/genetics
* Fluorescence
* Glutathione Transferase/drug effects*
* Glutathione Transferase/metabolism*
* Humans
* Phenotype
* Polymorphism, Genetic
* Thimerosal/adverse effects*
* Anti-Infective Agents, Local
* Thimerosal
* glutathione S-transferase T1
* Glutathione Transferase
PMID: 11556154 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Others, don't believe ANB's hype-read the actually SIMPSONWOOD DOCUMENT yourself especially if you are a SCIENTIST or physician.

Also as regards chelation in autistic children please see former post-thread on the use of this idea by THE DEPARTMENT OF PEDIATRICS AT SUNY BUFFALO, have posted the abstract elsewhere so all visitors just keep reading through many othese posts and you will see how desperate some are getting to cover the trail of "debate".

Joseph said...

Mercury poisoning symptoms are identical to symptoms Adam has experienced, which include vision and eye damage, pancreas problems, coughing, shortness of breath, peeling skin on hands and feet, incoordination, chest pain, vision problems, erratic behavior, fever, tremors, rashes, mouth sores, itching, swelling, flushing face and ears, kidney problems, liver problems, pituitary dysfunction, endocrine dysfunction, metabolism disorder, hearing problems, neurologic issues, impaired learning, brain damage, memory loss, headaches, increased blood pressure, abdominal pain, increased heart rate, loss of appetite, sleeplessness, restlessness, irritability, shyness, fretfulness, joint pains, numbness and weakness. Because of the exposure in utero is more damaging to the developing fetus, Adam has suffered great damage to all organs and nervous system.

That could be mercury poisoning. It sounds nothing like autism. Now, explain to me how in the world any doctor would look at these symptoms and say "autism" rather than "get the child to a hospital right away!"

AutismNewsBeat said...

Any doctor? Don't forget about the magical healing powers of DAN!!

EFFIIIMD said...

Ha ha . . . Nice work guys, linear streaming to cover that you can't debate me. So obvious . . . discerning readers continue to see right through you and Joseph. The real magic here is in the cover-up that is now getting so well out of the bag that the AAP leadership is getting as desperate as you two (who obviously know nothing of medicine or science that is incovenient to you-and really you don't even seem to know the science you try to market here).

krakaanbma said...

I generally try to avoid a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.