Wednesday, December 26, 2007

Comment-Part 4 better. Yes...we have no Thimerosol!

This item was emailed to this blog. -AR

I have read the transcript of Part 4...missed the visuals. Once again we have the "expert" octogenarian PhD as well as a "researcher"talking thru the top of their heads about things with which they have not a clue.

Haley the researcher makes a point of identifying vaccines as the obvious only common factor for autism across different nations. Well... of course there are other common environmental factors affecting children around the world. If you discount that the relaxed diagnostic criteria for autism, could account for increased cases, how about plastic? Plastic is now ubiquitous in the environment of the world. Then there are electromagnetic fields (TV, Cell phones), PCBs, asbestos, pesticides, agricultural use of hormones and antibiotics... the list goes on.

Hmmm...and while thinking of alternative theories, the radiologist who posts here may want to explain how it is that medical imaging...particularly prenatal not the autism

The point is, babies are born into a very different environment today than they were 60 years ago. Lets face it, there are some folks who have been opposed to vaccines from the beginning and who have latched onto autism as a selling point. Some of these people also opposed fluoridation of water (as a Communist plot), and have now, quite unfortunately, sold the idea to
some families affected by autism that they should blame "the mercury in vaccines".

I believe that KOMU and Ashley have been "played" by these same vaccine opponents. As a result, we have this very biased and poorly produced series, which merely adds to the pain of autism sufferers and could easily have the effect of children not receiving life saving

What a missed opportunity to address autism! There are real issues which these families face: Lack of school and community support, health care costs in a world without universal
health care, transition to independent living, etc. Where were the interviews with social service agencies, school officials, health departments, insurance company executives? Now that would have been a productive and informative story.

No Thimerosol in the current vaccine regime: I do appreciate that in the text of the 4th installment, there is mention that current routinely used vaccines for children, do not contain thimerosol. So, it is at the end of the series that we kind of learn that single unit dose vaccines are preservative free. That, only in the context however, of "Parents must decide if..." deciding needed if the issue is Thimerosol...there ain't any!

Historically multi use vials of vaccine contained Thimerosol in very small quantities as a preservative. Single use vials do not contain any preservative, and the "live" vaccines have ALWAYS been preservative free. These would be MMR (Measles, Mumps Rubella),
Varicella (Chickenpox) and the old oral Polio vaccine.

For real information about vaccines see the Immunization Action Coalition:
Check out their pictures and films of the results of unvaccinated children. Vaccine preventable illnesses are not simply normal childhood illnesses that people should experience to improve their immune systems. The microcephally, retardation, and blindness of Rubella syndrome are real. The awful sound of babies with diptheria struggling for breath, and the arched back of children dying of tetanus are real. The effectiveness of vaccines to prevent these
tragic outcomes is real.

So...this KOMU series was much ado about nothing...with a potential
terrible effect.

Bill Monroe, RN


Dr. FOGARTY said...


You make some great points and in these envrironmentally sensitive children I would also have doubts as to the safety of all those exposures you mention as harming them too. Point is we need have an urgent approach to finding who these kids are as soon as they are born via urine screening testing, just like PKU and then modfiy their lives so that all kinds of low dose toxins are avoided as best possible, including vaccines.

PS: I am not a vaccine opponent, I am trying to push safety of a universal mandate (which is very un-republican) to a higher threshold-I know it seems unfair but if the same standard of safety were applied to vaccines as are to my contrast agents we wouldn't have any vaccines and THAT IS THE CATCH 22. We are all going to have to admit that many mothers really did see there children fall apart after a vaccine and work to improve safety in ways I have alluded to all over this blog.

Kathleen Seidel said...

Bill, your observation about anti-vaccinationists latching onto autism to promote their ideology is right on the money. Both Professor "Not-a-Medical Doctor" Boyd Haley (who was an anti-amalgam warrior long before he jumped onto the autism bandwagon) and Dr. Ted "The Omniscient Radiologist" Fogarty are associated with the Association of American Physician and Surgeons. AAPS is a political organization that opposes government involvement in the provision of health care. (Libertarian presidential candidate Ron Paul is an AAPS member.) Their "Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons" (previously known as "Medical Sentinel") is one of the most enthusiastic promoters of the idea that autism is vaccine-induced. (They point the finger of blame at vaccines for shaken baby syndrome, too.) You may be interested to read my article, Strange Bedfellows, which offers a review of AAPS' political agenda and the scientific hypotheses they have promoted through JPANDS.

tkasemodel said...


In your letter you boldly state "current routinely used vaccines for children, do not contain thimerosol".

A simple google of "thimerosal vaccines mercury" takes you immediately to

Here you will see Table 3: Thimerosal and Expanded List of Vaccines - (updated 9/6/2007)
Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines

I suggest you study this carefully. You will see that 10 vaccines given to children under 17 manufactured in 2007 contain thimerosal.

As far as your comments regarding Dr. Haley, it is disingenuous to imply he believes thimerosal is the only toxin that causes autism, he never states that at all. Pointing to other toxins in the environment but implying thimerosal is completely innocuous is also somewhat perplexing.

You reference the Immunization Action Coalition as a "real source" of vaccine information. I can hardly consider them to be an independent source of information on thimerosal when fifty percent of their funding comes from the pharmacuetical industry, and the other half comes from the CDC.

I attended a live radio program on autsim where a pediatrician stood up and stated that thimerosal was taken out of infant vaccines except the flu years ago. When the program ended I approached him and the representative from the IAC (the Associate Director for
Immunization Projects) who was with him to point out he was wrong. I informed him if he continued to say things that his patients knew were not true he would lose credibility with the families he served.

After the good Dr. chided me that he was the expert I looked to the IAC representative and asked her to explain to him that I was in fact correct. It was then and only then that she informed him of mercury in the Tripedia and Energix B vaccines - given to infants even today.

The pediatrician was at a loss for words. He asked ME to get HIM more information on which vaccines contain mercury. I explained that that was the job of the Immunization Action Coalition, and he should be very concerned that it took a confrontation from a parent before the IAC would give him accurate information.

Interesting that we should "Check out their pictures and films of the results of unvaccinated children". The IAC seems to be implying that the only kids that get "vaccine preventable illnesses" are the unvaccinated. This is simply not true, and another great example of funding sources influencing what information is given and what is not.

Putting blind trust into one basket without investigating the facts on your own is foolhardy, as the pediatrician I mention above had found out.

ANB said...

Fogarty and the AAPS? That's rich. The group also opposes evolution science and evidence based medicine, IIRC.

Well, that explains quite a bit. Not everything, but it's a huge piece of the puzzle, as we say in autism land.

BillinMidMO said...

In Missouri, all vaccines given under the age of 3 can not have
Thimerosol in them....even tho, in my opinion, Thimerosol is as safe
as eating a tuna sandwich in terms of merury exposure.
Some vaccines contain practically no thimerosol (Less than 0.3 mcg) as
a residue of the production process...not as a preservative.
The only vaccines currently in use in Missouri with the level of
mercury that has everyone upset... (25 mcg) the flu vaccine and
Tetanus/ Diptheria. There are alternatives to these, and pregnant
women and children under 3 receive Thimerosol free flu vaccine.
A few facts on the table are helpful.
My point is, that Thimerosol is NOT implicated in autism even at
higher doses. I am sorry to disappoint. Just because autism
is first noticed by parents after their initial vaccine series, does
not mean that the vaccines were the cause. The birthday study, and
others like it, bear that out.

tkasemodel said...

Bill, you say in your article that "current routinely used vaccines for children, do not contain thimerosol." You do not clarify that you are only talking about the infant (under 3)vaccines, and that you are only talking about Missouri.

The CDC commonly misrepresents this is "childhood" vaccines being "preservative free" when they actually mean kids 0 to 6 years of age. Currently some Tetanus, Menigococcal and flu vaccines for older kids are preserved with 25 mcg of mercury.

"Safe as eating a tuna sandwich"? Why is it that when someone is pointing out how safe ethylmercury is they compare it to methylmercury, yet when we talk about how toxic it is, we are told we can not camopare the two because they are so "different"?
Since you brought it up, a can of regular tuna has a concentration of .12 ppm or 120 ppb, ingested methylmerucury, subject to the protections of the bodies defenses. The "practically no thimerosol (Less than 0.3 mcg)" in an infant vaccine is 600 ppb is injected ethylmercury, bypassing our bodies protective measures. By the way, a 200 lb. man would need to eat 49 cans of tuna, absorbing 100% of the methylmercury to equal what the ethylmercury my son got just at 2 months of age (never mind as a fetus, birth, 4, 6, 12, and 18 months). That is a lot of sandwiches.

Show me one study that shows for certain how the 600 ppb concentration of ethylmercury dilutes SAFELY, where it goes initially, and where it finally ends up. Some will exit through urine and feces, but tell me through what organs it passes from the muscle tissue of an infant to get into the urine and feces.

Forget autism for now, just show me how thimerosal is safe. Can't be done with epidemiology; find me the toxicoloigal study or clinical study that will prove to me once and for all it is safe.

BillinMidMO said...

I live in Missouri. KOMU is in Columbia Missouri. I do not know or care where you are from, but the report needs to reflect Missouri standards.
As no vaccines are routinely given between age 18 months and 4 or 5 years, I believe that stating that no Thimerosol preservative is used in routine childhood vaccinations is accurate. But, if it helps, then OK... INFANT vaccines do not contain thimerosol as a preservative. It is the infant vaccine series that autism/vaccine connection advocates are concerned about. I think therefore that it is important to point out that infant vaccines no longer contain this preservative. MMR and Varicella have never had a preservative as they are "live" vaccines.
As you rightly point out, TD, some meningococcal and some Flu vaccines have Thimerosol as a preservative. Unit dose Menactra does not, and there are preservative free Flu and Td vaccines available. TDaP for adults is preservative free and Td is not licensed for use in those under age 7. So... off the radar as far as Autism is concerned. Menactra is only for older folks as well. Also not applicable to autism/thimerosol/vaccine controversies.
I won't argue the fine details of tuna.

EFFIIIMD said...

Not a member of AAPS, "well, there you go again" big Gipper fan.

Its such an irony that the lay public and JOURNALISTS keep pointing out the inconsistencies of the situation.

Kathleen Seidel said...

My apologies for confusing the antivaccinationist journal Medical Veritas (in which your review of Brian Jepson's book appeared) with the antivaccinationist journal JPANDS.

joe said...

Bill you say thimerosal is safe,
you are a RN not a toxicolgist.
It is strange that no one ever brings up aluminum as a catalist
the synergy effect of the two salts mixed the killing factor
times ten to brain cells, this
was discussed at the simpson wood
meeting heres an excerpt.
Dr. Johnston: Page 16 comments made in reference to a prior meeting on thimerosal "As an aside, we found cultural differences between vaccinologist and environmental health people in that many of us in the vaccine arena have never thought about uncertainty factors before. We tend to be relatively concrete in our thinking. Probably one of the big cultural events, at least for me, was when Dr. Clarkson repetitively pointed out to us that we just didn't get it about uncertainty (factors), and he was actually quite right."
Dr. Johnston: Page 20: Referring to the mixture of both aluminum and mercury in vaccines.there is absolutely no data including animal data, about the potential for synergy, additivity or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two salts in vaccines." Even people that pan for
gold know that aluminum and murcury
react violently when mixed. At the
injection site of my two year olds
leg was a knott the size of a mans
fist, so hot it would burn you to
touch it. Later I read mercury and
aluminum mixed causes heat, the next day three encephalopathy's.
Over night every thing he ate changed, he started flapping his hands, running and screaming, his speach started dropping off daily.Then to like animal type noises and screeching their
precious vaccines are creating
animals out of children. Would
you like to have this in your
home ??? Your beautiful little boy turned into a animal type creature
scratching you, beating the sheetrock off the walls, digging
his elbows in you and looking at
your face at the same time. Destroying everything in your house, he jumped up an down on the oven door we had to buy new oven.
Frig went out, bought a stainless
thinking it would be harder to dent
It now looks like it went through
a texas hail storm. TV remotes gone
through ten,he likes to get to the wire spring tear it out and filck it with his fingers my daughters glasses $460.00 one week old in eight peices when he got through
with them. Enough of my vaccine
induced Hell back to another
unknown factor besides the synergy
effect is that these children some
cannot dump heavy metals and
have high testostarone. My son has three times the testostarone of
a normal child testostarone pulls
in mercury exacerbates the killing
of the cells.this is from A Yale university study on steroids( Yale Medicine study shows for the first time that a high level of testosterone, such as that caused by the use of steroids to increase muscle mass or for replacement therapy, can lead to a catastrophic loss of brain cells.)
Mercury by it,s self causes neuron
cell death Aluminum by it,s self
study from canada said they found
neuron cell death then remember
the synergy effect the two salts mixed, killing factor times ten.
Then add high testosterone
with all this we have the killing feilds in these childrens brains
I believe the boston globe said it best ((FDA & CDC Bumbling at the Expense of Mercury-Poisoned Children)) I believe I made my case

BillinMidMO said...

I agree, autism is a terrible thing. The cause/effect of vaccination/thimerosol and autism is just not there.
There are of course some bad reactions to vaccines. I have no idea what you mean by "three encephalopathies" in one day....this makes no medical sense. I expect you may be referring to fevers?
It is quite true that in rare cases there are high fevers after vaccines which have caused seizures and subsequent brain damage.
This is a terrible outcome.
It is also extremely rare.
Polio for example:
Oral polio had a rate of one in a million cases of polio transmission to the recipient. The polio epidemic was bad enough that the risk was considered acceptable for the protection of the 999,999 others in society. Oral polio vaccine is now used only in plaves that wild polio still exists. If you are old enough to remember the 50s at all, you may appreciate the fact that due to the risk that parents were willing to take with the oral vaccine, there has not been a wild case of polio in the western hemisphere in over 20 years. Inactivated polio vaccine is still given until such time that polio follows the path of smallpox and is wiped out.
One roadblock in the way of polio eradication are the antivaccination pronouncements of religious leaders in Nigeria and Pakistan.
Basically, the Taliban are responsible for our need to continue vaccinating against polio.
Routine vaccination against smallpox ended in the 70s. Let us pray that other vaccine preventable disease can follow smallpox into the history books.
Until then , we need to take advantage of immunizations to protect our children.

joe said...

By encephalopathy's I meant my sons
head looked as if he had shivers
at the same time eyes blinking and
then looking dazed like where am I.
He did this three times with no
fever and walla it,s as if a vacume sucked my normal son out of his body an left a chlid with no
clue, with a very bad attitude. They say the early signs are not
smiling,no eye contact,not learning to speak my son was speaking had eye contact with us
and in a picture we have he is looking at our dog directly into
his eyes. We have pictures of a smileing jack of a boy. So he is
late on set after vaccines what
is the likely hood that all these parents are all wrong you see we don't all vaccinate at the same time in our case, it was at twenty seven months so that is a study in it's self.It would be impossible
for autism AKA mercury poisoning
to be on set right after vaccines
in so many familys because we don't
all vaccinate at the same time
did you not read of the criminal
behavior. Do you think it's ok to tell the public you don't trust us
so we will get the prestiegious IOM
(by the way I gaged when writing the
word prestiegious and IOM what a joke) to do a reveiw but not tell
the public the out come was already determined in their contract this is an excerpt
Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
"wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
basis." (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).
When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
"redacted" or
blacked-out format.

The IOM stated "no comment" to byronchild about the leaked transcript
or its
use in the pending civil court case.
That was taken from the actual minutes. Surly you cannot believe
putting mercury in children at the levels in the late eightys early
ninety's some children recieved
nine vaccines six had 25 ug's
each, one had 12.5 ug's,one with
three live viruses and a hib
lets break down this small amounts
fairy tell 0.5 parts per billion (ppb) mercury = Kills human neuroblastoma cells (Parran et al., Toxicol Sci 2005; 86: 132-140).

2 ppb mercury = U.S. EPA limit for drinking water ( ).

20 ppb mercury = Neurite membrane structure destroyed (Leong et al., Neuroreport 2001; 12: 733-37).

200 ppb mercury = level in liquid the EPA classifies as hazardous waste ( )

600 ppb mercury = Level in a currently licensed Hepatitis B, multi-dose vaccine vial, labeled as trace. This is administered at birth.

2,000 ppb mercury = 0.50-mL injections of Thimerosal-containing vaccines (FDA CBER's definition of "trace").

25,000 ppb mercury = Concentration of mercury in multi-dose, Hepatitis B vaccine vials, administered at birth from 1990-2000 in the U.S.

50,000 ppb mercury = Concentration of mercury in multi-dose, DTaP and Haemophilus B vaccine vials, administered 8 times in the 1990's to children at 2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 months of age. Current "preservative" level mercury in flu, meningococcal and tetanus (7 and older) vaccines.

When Mercks grand father of child's
vaccines DR. Hillaman confronted
Merck and said on the next vaccine
scedule the children will be getting eighty seven times what the EPA allows daily. Then he said
when looking at this in bolus doses not daily it's rather a
large dose. See what we know as parents and you don't know

If 200 ppb is liquid toxic waste
then what is 50,000 ppb that was
in every multi dose vial and remember some of our children
recieved from 7 vials in one day.
They were hiding 62.5 micograms by
age three mos and discussing being
in a bad position to defend aganst
law suites some of these kids recieved 187.5 in one setting
at 62.5 micograms by age three mos
it comes out to 2.48 times risk
of recieving autism, add, adhd, speech delay, care to calculate the risk factor at 187.5 micro grams in one setting

Anonymous said...

That's quite the conspiracy you're positing. How many people do you suppose are in on it? A couple million, maybe?

BillinMidMO said...

I again have no idea what you are talking about (IOM), and do not really care. Your definition of "encephalopathy" is quite inaccurate. It is not a symptom, but a state.
I am very sorry your son apparently experienced a profound precipitous change. No one has ever said vaccines are perfectly safe. This is why the VAERS system and the vaccine information statements, (which spell out the rare potential outcomes), exist.
It sounds to me as if he had a reaction of some kind ...probably to the pertussis portion of the vaccines, which is the usual suspect when it comes to fever and local swelling etc.
Sometimes the usual slight pain and swelling can be quite severe...even life threatening. Severe reactions ("adverse events" as the CDC would say)are very very rare. They have been known to cause children to be so profoundly affected that they end up institutionalized.
This has nothing whatever to do with merury.
Know that there are folks who oppose vaccine for religious reasons, conspiracy theories involving communists and world government, Area 51, etc etc.
These folks have enlisted parents of children with autism to make their sympathetic case to lawmakers and the media to stop immunizations. They also promote themselves their anti vaccine message thru gullible young news reporters to do series such as this on KOMU.
Before this thread degrades too far toward the direction of Godwins law (google it), I will close my responses to this post.

joe said...

IOM ( institute of medicine )
so you are an RN it seems you know
nothing about the science but you are sure it's ok to to inject one
of the most toxic compounds known
to man in a child at birth. To be
in the medical feild and not know who the IOM is I cannot believe
that. And then you pretend to know about this enough to talk about it in a forum such as this. When you have done twelve yr's of reading
research, talking to NIH scientist and researchers senators, and
congressmen, governors, mayers,
You see when you have a child
with very bad mercury poisoning
with labs from labcore that prove
that he is heavy metal poisoned.
You will read every research out
there and do what you can for your
child I should have known, you did not know the science when you did not challenge any of my science. may I suggest you stick to bed pans.

ANB said...

One roadblock in the way of polio eradication are the anti-vaccination pronouncements of religious leaders in Nigeria and Pakistan. Basically, the Taliban are responsible for our need to continue vaccinating against polio.

Funny you'd bring up faith-based objections to disease eradication. Dr. David Ayoub, MD, the Springfield, IL radiologist and self-proclaimed autism expert, says the World Health Organization secretly uses vaccines to sterilize women in third world countries. Bill Gates and the Rockefeller Foundation are in on the plot.

So many roadblocks, so little time.

effiiimd said...


You sound like a serious and wonderful nurse, very thoughtful in your approach. You really need to get a copy of the Simpsonwood document and read it for yourself. This was a meeting of the big wigs in vaccine science, public policy and pediatrics. There clearly are concerns of extremely smart people on the basis of the data they were seeing in 2000. Unfortunately I honestly don't know what I would have done either in that very concerning and charged situation, when everyone kind of knew there was a a weak but consistent increase in neurobehavioral problems with increasing vaccination. Again, we can do what is best for all here by vaccinating a bit differently. Both the goals of people on both sides of this fence are possible. I wanted to check my kids titers to make sure we had full immunity to everything but now that my son's pediatrician has seen what I have dug up on this controversy he has simply signed waivers on philosophical basis (and yes he is very establishment, testified in congress for S-CHIPS). Interestingly I was pushing for the titer check but he favored that since our kids have been through the whole series to age three he's not concerned of a gap of immunity.

You are exactly the type of person in healthcare that I am trying to reach Bill, we have been sold a bit of a fib on the safety issues for a select population which really, we couldn't have known how to find these kids back in 2000 and only in the last few months has the science started to point me to some of the approaches that I am advocating on this blog. Yes, it inflames the passions of parents who saw their children take a hit from vaccines and it inflames the passions of us in medicine who know how important they are but in reality the mature approach is for us to understand that for some (an its a small enough percentage for herd immunity coverage) vaccines should not be given, its less than 1% that need this discovery and release from the program that the rest of us can handle and for whom the benefits far outweigh the risks. If anyone in the MO state legislature is reading this, the latest paper from Harvard on the economic impacts of a severely autistic child is about $3.5M US, much of this cost is not for medical care but educational and behavioral care. If we can input a smaller amount on a statewide basis for reducing the severity on individual basis or preventing the environmental load that adds to the problem through screening them we will be meeting the goals and needs of the children, future generations, and the state's budget for these programs related to neurobehavioral problems in our children (which is a marker of the epidemic).

Hope you will keep looking at this with your thoughtful approach.

ANB said...

If anyone in the MO state legislature is reading this, ask for real data before you jump to conclusions. The Show Me State, with its legendary skepticism, is well positioned to lead the fight against pseudoscience and health care fraud.

Dr. Fogarty said...

State legislators need to read the Simpsonwood documents. The fraud is clearly at the federal level and the state governments are the only check in the governmental system. Skepticism towards the federal government is needed here, not toward common sensical approaches that haven't been and need to be tried. See if the MO legislature can get the transparency from the CDC that none of us in medicine outside of the chosen few can. If you can't get that "Show me" the data transparency from the CDC then you have to question the veracity of claims that there is no association going on here.

The history of science shows how easy it is to obscure a weak signal in epidemiology. Big picture is to do what is right for children who are at risk of adverse events from a universal mandate. Find the ones that are, get them out or do protocol comparisons in big places and have the CDC show you definitively that we really need all those boosters. Why pay for extra vaccines that you don't need? Get titers checked instead. Do the right thing, banning thimerosal from medical products has a long history in this country ask yourself why it has deemed unsafe so often in other products and not in the voicless and most vulnerable population of society-our children.